tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post114537244990545155..comments2023-12-16T16:50:25.810-08:00Comments on The Heart of the Matter: Mealy-mouthedness and ExaggerationsBarry Eislerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17785333622697500192noreply@blogger.comBlogger77125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145904453929939382006-04-24T11:47:00.000-07:002006-04-24T11:47:00.000-07:00Point taken.I'll try to behave.Point taken.<BR/><BR/>I'll try to behave.David Terrenoirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482864941636273068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145904141278862162006-04-24T11:42:00.000-07:002006-04-24T11:42:00.000-07:00last post was mine.last post was mine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145904082656284602006-04-24T11:41:00.000-07:002006-04-24T11:41:00.000-07:00Thanks Berry. To answer the question, last time I...Thanks Berry. To answer the question, last time I posted my name and city on something, I started to get some pretty serious mail in my home mail box. This included some pornographic material that my wife opened. My one mistake in my career that won’t be repeated. <BR/><BR/>As there is nothing to gain, why take the chance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145902101119053362006-04-24T11:08:00.000-07:002006-04-24T11:08:00.000-07:00Jim, I think you've asked a fascinating question. ...Jim, I think you've asked a fascinating question. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm going to think about it and it will probably inform the piece I plan to do on abortion. Thanks for posing the question.<BR/><BR/>JH and David, maybe it's time for a deep breath. It's easy to develop an antipathy in cyberspace, where we can't see each other's expressions and body language or hear tone of voice. Which is another reason I'm a stickler on the manner of posting... words and phraseology are pretty much all we have to go on in this environment, and when we choose unwisely, things spriral downhill fast.<BR/><BR/>As for posting anonymously: I do prefer people to give their names and some other info when they're posting because it's been my experience that people are less restrained when they feel they're anonymous. There's a Japanese expression to the effect that "The traveler loses his sense of shame," and I think there's a lot to that. Still, David, your question, "Why not stand up for what you believe instead of shielding yourself through anonymous initials?" might more usefully have been put, "Can I ask you why you prefer to post anonymously?" In which case you would only have been soliciting information, and not simultaneously assuming facts not in evidence, as the lawyers like to say. Which would have increased the odds of a less irritated and more substantive response from JH...<BR/><BR/>As you can tell, I think tone matters a lot... ;-)Barry Eislerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17785333622697500192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145897904186797312006-04-24T09:58:00.000-07:002006-04-24T09:58:00.000-07:00Jim, (and don't let david see you don't use your l...Jim, (and don't let david see you don't use your last name) I started to agree yes it was a silly point but then I started thinking about being an organ donor and the similarities between the abortion issue and that one. Thanks, you gave me much to think about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145897596999223072006-04-24T09:53:00.000-07:002006-04-24T09:53:00.000-07:00david, I guess if I were trying to sell books I wo...david, I guess if I were trying to sell books I would also post my full name and site. It does speak volumes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145891159999690272006-04-24T08:06:00.000-07:002006-04-24T08:06:00.000-07:00I've often wondered why, if the State will have co...I've often wondered why, if the State will have control over a woman's womb to save a life, they don't want to exercise control over other organs to saves lives. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps we could set up a national lottery for kidney transplants, blood donations, etc. Lives would be saved and what right do people have to declare what happens with their organs. The State should just take what they need to save lives.<BR/><BR/>I realize that's not the legal standard on which abortion bans were overturned, but it always seemed to me to be a bit of an absurd but logical extension of the argument. If the state controls someone's womb or risks associated with birth, why couldn't they take your kidney? I mean, you've got two, right?<BR/><BR/>Perhaps its a silly point?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145767233387311632006-04-22T21:40:00.000-07:002006-04-22T21:40:00.000-07:00JH, I started to respond to your questions and in ...JH, I started to respond to your questions and in doing so realized that the subject matter was sufficiently important and interesting to justify its own post. So stay tuned...<BR/><BR/>Thanks,<BR/><BR/>BarryBarry Eislerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17785333622697500192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145761354025865532006-04-22T20:02:00.000-07:002006-04-22T20:02:00.000-07:00jh from toledo,I can't speak for Barry, but I'm al...jh from toledo,<BR/><BR/>I can't speak for Barry, but I'm always suspicious of people who hide behind anonymous posts. In the ether world, it speaks volumes, perhaps unintended, but still volumes.<BR/><BR/>If you'll notice, most of the others here are quite willing to put a name and a face to their opinions.<BR/><BR/>I wonder why you don't.<BR/><BR/>There's no obligation, of course, but still, why not stand up for what you believe instead of shielding yourself through anonymous initials?<BR/><BR/>And if you really want to engage me personally, come over to A Dark Planet where we can take the gloves off?<BR/><BR/>I don't want to break any of Barry's furniture.David Terrenoirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482864941636273068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145721239780709542006-04-22T08:53:00.000-07:002006-04-22T08:53:00.000-07:00barry, it sounds as if you are saying the only ton...barry, it sounds as if you are saying the only tone we can bring to a discussion is uncertainy and the possiblity that we are mistaken and our minds can be changed.<BR/><BR/>Are you suggesting here that there are no right or wrong issues, that everything is a shade of gray? That me believing for example with all my heart in a topic, any topic now sets a tone? Isn't it hard to understand tone on a written exchange? Should I be putting in happy faces. <BR/><BR/>Please review my comment again. I wasn't arguing with anyone on the topic. I merely pointed out my belief. The arguments came from others not on the topic, but apparently on my right to voice it.<BR/><BR/>No one asked for discusion on why I believe as I do, they were too interested in fighting someone that has an strong feeling.<BR/><BR/>Do you truly believe that there are no matters of right and wrong? Or are we simply to believe and embrace each post as written until the next one comes along and we have to change our minds again? <BR/><BR/>When I address you, yes, I am addressing you. But in the example I gave in the last post, I was talking to someone else. <BR/><BR/>Finally, don't you find it a bit odd that all the discusion, debate, insert PC word here, have been on one statement and one statement only, and not one on the topic raise by someone other than myself? It does indeed sound like an issue no one wants to talk about.<BR/><BR/>But since yours is the last post I read, I agree with you completely...until of course I read mine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145675454682375952006-04-21T20:10:00.000-07:002006-04-21T20:10:00.000-07:00JH, you said, "barry, you are reading things that ...JH, you said, "barry, you are reading things that I am address to others as to you..."<BR/><BR/>I may have misunderstood, JH, but when you said, "Sorry Barry, I must have missed the part where you told us only politics. I wasn't aware of topics too taboo to discuss..." and, "Barry, I'll try to behave and not bring up any hard topics if it only causes hard feelings," I understood you to be addressing me, and so I responded. Was I mistaken?<BR/><BR/>In any event, the distinction I've been trying to get across is between what you're arguing and the way you're arguing it.<BR/><BR/>So when you say, "I was... simply advising you that if these topics are upsetting people then I will try to stay with fluff," I would ask you to consider the difference between topic and tone. And the possibility that there might be alternatives beyond declaring that something is "a matter of right and wrong, moral and immoral, life and death," on the one hand, and discussing nothing but fluff, on the other.<BR/><BR/>As for moving on to "safer issues," I don't know of any issue that would be unsafe here. But I do know of productive and unproductive ways of discussing them.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your consideration.Barry Eislerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17785333622697500192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145657814329354922006-04-21T15:16:00.000-07:002006-04-21T15:16:00.000-07:00barry, you are reading things that I am address to...barry, you are reading things that I am address to others as to you. I was answering david about his hard feeling comment and simply advising you that if these topics are upsetting people then I will try to stay with fluff.<BR/><BR/>You said twice now that "If something is "a matter of right and wrong, moral and immoral, life and death," "only black and white... there is no gray," it probably isn't something amenable to discussion, don't you agree?"<BR/><BR/>It appears to me from your statement that if one has a strong feeling on a topic than it isn't "amenable to discussion". To give you a simple answer again, it does indeed still sound to me that by this statement you wished to end the discussion on this topic.<BR/><BR/>No, again I don't agree. I was merely stating my opionion on the issue. I wasn't aware that my opinion carried such weight that it closes the discussion the topic.<BR/><BR/>I am trying my best to slowly read your posts carefully and try very hard to copy and past those statements that I am responding to. Perhaps I can respectfully pose your closing question to you.<BR/><BR/>We have spent far too much time discussing whether we should discuss the topic, a topic that I don't believe even brought up, and no time at all discussing the topic. <BR/><BR/>Maybe it's time to move on to safer issues.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145654277312389722006-04-21T14:17:00.000-07:002006-04-21T14:17:00.000-07:00JH, I ask you again, where have I asked you not to...JH, I ask you again, where have I asked you not to bring up "hard topics" (or particular topics at all)? It's a simple question, and I hope you'll answer it.<BR/><BR/>And where did I mention "hard feelings?"<BR/><BR/>Is it possible that you're not reading my posts carefully, or that you're reading things into them that aren't there?Barry Eislerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17785333622697500192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145647892833730362006-04-21T12:31:00.000-07:002006-04-21T12:31:00.000-07:00David said ". . .the Bible. It says, "Thou shalt n...David said ". . .the Bible. It says, "Thou shalt not kill," <BR/><BR/>"Now, don't get into throwing scripture at me" <BR/><BR/>". . .think that I said you weren't allowed to quote scripture<BR/><BR/>then you are misreading my posts."<BR/><BR/>I don't know, seems pretty clear to me.<BR/><BR/>I wasn't aware that I had a hard stance on abortion. <BR/><BR/>I think it says something (what I'm not sure) when you feel you have to apologize because you confused me with being Christian. Is being Christian an insult?<BR/><BR/>As far as killing life of any kind, I could very well and might possibly be, a Buddhist. The sad thing is that had I mentioned the unwarranted killing of insects as the Buddhist believe, no one would have said a thing.<BR/><BR/>Nuts, there I am being hard again.<BR/><BR/>Barry, I'll try to behave and not bring up any hard topics if it only causes hard feelings. Not my intention.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145646882619500112006-04-21T12:14:00.000-07:002006-04-21T12:14:00.000-07:00jh wrote: I not sure what comments you made that I...jh wrote: <BR/><BR/>I not sure what comments you made that I am misreading, please elaborate.<BR/><BR/>OK.<BR/><BR/><I>Again, why is it okay for you to quote it [scripture] (especially when it carries no more weight with you than Raymond Chandler) to show a point but no one else is allowed?</I><BR/><BR/>This is a perfect example. If you <BR/><BR/>A. Don't know why I used the example I did and<BR/><BR/>B. think that I said you weren't allowed to quote scripture<BR/><BR/>then you are misreading my posts. I can only assume that it's my writing that's at fault and not your comprehension skills. My apologies.<BR/><BR/>And if I inferred from your hard stance on abortion that you were a Christian and if I conflated your beliefs with Bonnie's, I apologize. <BR/><BR/>I'll go someplace now and be properly contrite.David Terrenoirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482864941636273068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145637266993786562006-04-21T09:34:00.000-07:002006-04-21T09:34:00.000-07:00david said "Before I leave this, I want to clarify...david said "Before I leave this, I want to clarify why I said not to toss scripture at me.<BR/><BR/>You believe that if your opinion is backed by scripture, and scripture is the word of God, that makes your opinion infallible. Logical."<BR/><BR/>David, I guess what is confusing me is that I never mentioned the bible that I remember except in response to your quoting it to me. Again, why is it okay for you to quote it (especially when it carries no more weight with you than Raymond Chandler) to show a point but no one else is allowed? Again, not that I did.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145636743602067772006-04-21T09:25:00.000-07:002006-04-21T09:25:00.000-07:00Barry said "JH, you've focused on the word politic...Barry said "JH, you've focused on the word politics and ignored everything else. Let me resubmit my question: If something is "a matter of right and wrong, moral and immoral, life and death," "only black and white... there is no gray," it probably isn't something amenable to discussion, don't you agree?"<BR/><BR/>Ah, but what a discussion we are having on this non discussion issue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145636157448276722006-04-21T09:15:00.000-07:002006-04-21T09:15:00.000-07:00David, I not sure what comments you made that I am...David, I not sure what comments you made that I am misreading, please elaborate. <BR/><BR/>I have to think that you are responding to some other posts, as I’m not sure what you are talking about. What opinions did request validation on? I don't need, nor am I interested in anyone's validation here. Do I sound unsure about anything to you? <BR/><BR/>As to changing anyone's mind on an issue, they would have to be open to discussion on it.<BR/><BR/>It is not my intension to change anyone’s ideas on any topic. I am just expressing mine. At your age and mine, it often takes a significant event to change our minds on a major issue. Lets hope it doesn’t happen to either of us. <BR/><BR/>I want to hear different opionions. Like you some of the post have made me think about other views and have shaken and opened my eyes a bit. I'm here to learn, not fight. If I struck a nerve with you with this one issue for some reason, then I am sorry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145635747880917722006-04-21T09:09:00.000-07:002006-04-21T09:09:00.000-07:00Before I leave this, I want to clarify why I said ...Before I leave this, I want to clarify why I said not to toss scripture at me.<BR/><BR/>You believe that if your opinion is backed by scripture, and scripture is the word of God, that makes your opinion infallible. Logical.<BR/><BR/>However, there are many people, and I'm one of them, who believe the Bible is the work of men. It's a valuable piece of cultural literature and anyone who wants to understand Western culture should read it, and I have. <BR/><BR/>But finding moral absolutes in the Bible, and using those absolutes to validate your stance on any subject, means as much to me as if you were quoting the Baghvad Gita, the Koran, or the Book of the Dead.<BR/><BR/>Unless we agree it's an infallible document, scripture does little more to prove your point than if you quoted Raymond Chandler.<BR/><BR/>That's what I meant.<BR/><BR/>And no, I'm not one of those "if it feels good, do it" crowd. My beliefs are much more nuanced than that. But nuance is tough to do in the comments section of a blog.David Terrenoirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482864941636273068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145634273411065842006-04-21T08:44:00.000-07:002006-04-21T08:44:00.000-07:00jh,I have no problem discussing anything. But if ...jh,<BR/><BR/>I have no problem discussing anything. But if you honestly, believe you're going to change anyone's mind about abortion with a few comments on this blog, you have a very high estimation of your persuasive powers.<BR/><BR/>If you can't see any validity in whatever I say on an issue, if you're already so certain in your opinion that there is nothing I could say that could possibly make you reconsider, then that is a subject we can't discuss. Only you know what those things are. You've already identified abortion and believe me, if you think I haven't thought deeply about the issue, at the age of 56, with a wife and daughter, then you must think I'm either stupid or I've been living in a cave. Trust me, neither of those are true.<BR/><BR/>For instance, charlie got me thinking about the issues of whether these generals should have spoken up earlier, when they were still on active duty. It made me reconsider my opinion of what's legally right, what's morally right, and what is culturally defined. That's a good post. After thinking about it, I may still not agree with Charlie, but at least I appreciate his point of view.<BR/><BR/>That's a dialogue, and sometimes an argument, and that's what I look for in intelligent debate. If all you want is your opinion validated, I'm not interested.<BR/><BR/>But, based on your misreading of other comments, I honestly don't expect you to get the difference.David Terrenoirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482864941636273068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145633293030634652006-04-21T08:28:00.000-07:002006-04-21T08:28:00.000-07:00Bonnie, where did you see dismay in my post? Can ...Bonnie, where did you see dismay in my post? Can you explain why in response to my thoughts it would be relevant that you were responding to someone else?<BR/><BR/>JH, you've focused on the word politics and ignored everything else. Let me resubmit my question: If something is "a matter of right and wrong, moral and immoral, life and death," "only black and white... there is no gray," it probably isn't something amenable to discussion, don't you agree?<BR/><BR/>JH, where did you see a topical prohibition in there? And can you explain why in response to my thoughts it would be relevant that you were responding to someone else?Barry Eislerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17785333622697500192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145632635806109452006-04-21T08:17:00.000-07:002006-04-21T08:17:00.000-07:00David said "I'm sorry, bonnie and jh, but there ar...David said "I'm sorry, bonnie and jh, but there are no moral absolutes, even in the Bible. It says, "Thou shalt not kill," but we know the Bible also supports capital punishment. Shades of gray."<BR/><BR/>Actually David the correct translation is Thou shall not commit murder. God I think realizes that there are legitimate takes on killing, such as in self defense. One of God’s favorites was David, and he is praised in the Bible for his skills at battle.<BR/><BR/>I’m not sure what bible you read, but there are plenty of moral absolutes. Jesus, unlike our current leaders, was not afraid to define right and wrong. He was not PC.<BR/><BR/><BR/>David said "What I'm saying is, if you want to grow politically, artistically, and morally, you have to first admit that you're a human being, and all human beings are fallible."<BR/><BR/>I don’t want to talk for Bonnie, but I don’t believe either of us thinks we are infallible. Yes, people make mistakes. However just because we can’t always live up to the ideal doesn’t make the ideal and less worthwhile or true. How do you suggest that one grows morally when you feel that morals are not absolute. What ideal then are you reaching for?Are you of the “as long as it feels good and doesn’t hurt anybody it's okay” crowd?<BR/><BR/>David said "So, in Barry's words, "if you recognize that your post can't possibly persuade, why are you posting it? What is the post intended to accomplish?"<BR/><BR/>If you really believed this, then why are you posting this?<BR/><BR/>Where did either of us say that our posts can't possible persuade? <BR/><BR/><BR/>David said "Now, don't get into throwing scripture at me, because I grew up in a Southern Baptist household and I've been preached to by the best. Save your energy for another heathen."<BR/><BR/>Gee, right after you throw it at us?<BR/><BR/><BR/>I for one want to discuss ideas and issues. What good does it do to discuss things with only those that agree with you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145624389075101232006-04-21T05:59:00.000-07:002006-04-21T05:59:00.000-07:00I know I may regret this, but I'd like to respond ...I know I may regret this, but I'd like to respond to both jh and bonnie's posts, without getting into the issue of abortion, which is something we will never come to terms with. <BR/><BR/>jh and bonnie have both made it clear there is no possible room for discussion so, OK, I can live with that.<BR/><BR/>If I can be so presumptuous as to speak for Barry, what he's saying here is that if you are so convinced that you're right, and there is no room for debate, why bring it up? I responded to bonnie's post from a linguistic standpoint, which was the point of this post. And yes, I should have known better.<BR/><BR/>As for a larger issue, I'm a writer and to me the world is an ambiguous place. That's what makes work interesting and why I love getting up in the morning. Without moral ambiguity, there would be no Holden Caulfield, no Smiley, no Yossarian, and no John Rain. <BR/><BR/>I'm sorry, bonnie and jh, but there are no moral absolutes, even in the Bible. It says, "Thou shalt not kill," but we know the Bible also supports capital punishment. Shades of gray.<BR/><BR/>Now, don't get into throwing scripture at me, because I grew up in a Southern Baptist household and I've been preached to by the best. Save your energy for another heathen.<BR/><BR/>What I'm saying is, if you want to grow politically, artistically, and morally, you have to first admit that you're a human being, and all human beings are fallible.<BR/><BR/>So, in Barry's words, "if you recognize that your post can't possibly persuade, why are you posting it? What is the post intended to accomplish?"<BR/><BR/>Discussion is fine, but what's to discuss if you're so convinced I can't possibly have a valid point? That doesn't lead to a discussion, that becomes a polemic.<BR/><BR/>Smug surety is one of the least attractive sides of today's political armosphere.<BR/><BR/>That's my take on this. But, as always, I could be wrong.<BR/><BR/>Now, I have work to do.David Terrenoirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482864941636273068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145615215953737552006-04-21T03:26:00.000-07:002006-04-21T03:26:00.000-07:00Sorry Barry, I must have missed the part where you...Sorry Barry, I must have missed the part where you told us only politics. I wasn't aware of topics too taboo to discuss. If I recall an earlier post of yours, you said something to the effect of "just wait till I get to the abortion issue".<BR/><BR/>Like bonnie, I was only responding to other posts. Is there a list of topics you might want to post that are too hot for us to talk about. And who knows, bonnie might just might make someone think about what shes says and saves a life. Worth it, I think so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1145597689201270692006-04-20T22:34:00.000-07:002006-04-20T22:34:00.000-07:00Barry, I'm sorry that you are so dismayed. In both...Barry, I'm sorry that you are so dismayed. In both of my last comments, I was responding to the actual comments of David Terrenoire.<BR/><BR/>I took the topic of this post to be euphemisms...ProChoice is definitely a euphemism.<BR/><BR/>In response to your question...I don't know? What are you posts intended to accomplish? Especially since it's obvious you can't possibly persuade.<BR/><BR/> I thought you were posting for discussion. It looks to me, that is what you have.Bonnie S. Calhounhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11769607640246518804noreply@blogger.com