tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post1151127328628422211..comments2023-12-16T16:50:25.810-08:00Comments on The Heart of the Matter: The Willful Stupidity of Anti-Gay PrejudiceBarry Eislerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17785333622697500192noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-33965681785583077492009-07-15T21:28:36.664-07:002009-07-15T21:28:36.664-07:00"The behavior of this gay soldier drove my so..."The behavior of this gay soldier drove my son nuts – his effeminate banter, his comments on how my son dressed, how he acted, who he hung out with, his girlfriends, not to mention the gay sexual innuendo was just a constant day-to-day experience for my son."<br /><br />I am straight, and had many straight roommates in college in just as close quarters (two college ball players and me in a dorm room, sharing everything) and they drove me just as crazy with their antics, drinking all hours, bringing home chicks and having sex on their beds (and women weren't allowed after hours) while I was studying for a test the next day ... so banning gays isn't really going to solve what sounds like, to me, a behavior problem with roomies ... it's always going to happen. <br /><br />Just as their are bad gay roomies, there are good ones, and vice-versa ... so it's a bit of a false equivalency ... which you kind of admit, but then you hold it up out there anyway. <br /><br />"Doing away with DADT will not make things better. On the contrary, it would probably make things worse because openly gay males will be met with openly anti-gay hostility. It’s a reality of the US Military."<br /><br />It seems to me that they said the same thing about integration, did they not? White soldiers couldn't take bunking with black, etc ... there was hostility, there would be incidents ... and yet, it all worked out. It had to. <br /><br />It sounds like you're saying, "it's just too much work to make it work without hurting a few soldiers feelings, so let's ban the gays anyway, even though it violates the constitution they've sworn to defend.<br /><br />And this:<br /><br />"I read the comments above, those of the Barry and of his readers, and though those words of wisdom who oppose DADT - your opinions and comments are right and true (for the most part) – I cannot help but wonder what idealistic and naive planet you are all living on. Have you all lost touch with basic human nature? There seems to be a major disconnect between how you think things should be and how things really are."<br /><br />You agree that Barry and his commenters are right, for the most part, but that you don't like that they're right because it doesn't reflect the world ... as you see it ... correct?<br /><br />In your world, gays are too much trouble in service (though other countries have gays serving and have no problems) and we shouldn't even be talking about it ... <br /><br />I don't think there's a disconnect between how things are and how they should be ... indeed, this very column addresses one such thing ... DADT is unconstitutional and wrong, and it SHOULD be changed. <br /><br />So where's the wrongness in thinking that? I get you think it's going to be a pain (too much work for the soldiers to deal with, serving with gays, even though they already do) but how is it wrong and disconnected?Joshua Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08239067667651048280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-70992286736069228402009-07-15T11:54:51.683-07:002009-07-15T11:54:51.683-07:00As far as gays being in the military, after servin...As far as gays being in the military, after serving nearly half my career in the Army, I can safely say that I never knew anyone who was gay. Maybe I lead a sheltered existence, but I never served with anyone who was gay – that I know of. And even if they were gay I don’t know if it would have bothered me one way or the other. However, my son was a Combat Medic and was stationed in Germany. He was at a very small med station and most of the surrounding units were deployed to Iraq. His roommate was a very openly gay male – and the chain of command either didn’t care or threw a blind eye at the situation. Now there may be an argument that when you are in a foxhole, gunfire and explosions all around, the sexual orientations of the person next to you is the least of your worries. But when you have to share living space with an openly gay man who brings his boyfriends into your shared living space, who acts flamboyant and loud about their sexual preference, then it admittedly can be – uncomfortable. Call it prejudice, bigotry, or what have you, but straight males and gay males are not compatible for prolonged periods in confined spaces. Lower enlisted are assigned to their living space, usually two to three man rooms with anywhere between 8 to 10 square feet of ‘personal space’ assigned to each soldier. That’s not a whole lot of room, especially when most of that space is taken up by a wall locker, a twin sized bed, a table and a chair. There are no doors. The bathroom is shared. Get the picture? And the living spaces of sailors are even worse with nothing but a bunk and a footlocker to call home. The behavior of this gay soldier drove my son nuts – his effeminate banter, his comments on how my son dressed, how he acted, who he hung out with, his girlfriends, not to mention the gay sexual innuendo was just a constant day-to-day experience for my son. Now to generalize all the gays in the military by the actions of this particular one is neither fair nor reasonable – but to say that this is an isolated incident would also be unfair in getting a handle on the problem of openly gay males in the military. And then there is the social stigma of being a straight male living with a gay male in the “Hooaah” world of the U.S. Army. I read the comments above, those of the Barry and of his readers, and though those words of wisdom who oppose DADT - your opinions and comments are right and true (for the most part) – I cannot help but wonder what idealistic and naive planet you are all living on. Have you all lost touch with basic human nature? There seems to be a major disconnect between how you think things should be and how things really are. Doing away with DADT will not make things better. On the contrary, it would probably make things worse because openly gay males will be met with openly anti-gay hostility. It’s a reality of the US Military.Oblivious to oblivionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05813667715718784531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-87189684701865523102009-07-13T22:04:17.977-07:002009-07-13T22:04:17.977-07:00Barry Eisler: improving the world, one bigot at a...Barry Eisler: improving the world, one bigot at a time. <br /><br />:-)<br /><br />Looking forward to "Inside Out." I hope some remnant of our conversation about money laundering makes it into the book!KSRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09177966072157040635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-81727861463854892372009-07-12T12:42:07.619-07:002009-07-12T12:42:07.619-07:00Your substitution of black or straight in the diat...Your substitution of black or straight in the diatribe hit home.<br /><br />Our local newspaper, the Roanoke Times, published a rabid opinion piece from a former enlisted man in the Navy. He foamed at the mouth about the probability of having to put up with gays having sex in the berths, all the while saying that when women joined the navy, the men got used to hearing another guy "get lucky."<br /><br />The ill-informed opiner went on to say that navy men know gay men will rape them. Um, rape is a hetrosexual crime more often than it is a homosexual crime.<br /><br />I fear that this man's position is too firmly entrenched in redneck America to be changed. I wonder if DADT will be repealed in my lifetime.Betsy Ashtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06871010122475160477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-86995563816597895732009-07-12T11:53:21.134-07:002009-07-12T11:53:21.134-07:00I had a similar discussion with someone a couple w...I had a similar discussion with someone a couple weeks ago where I used the same replacement word strategy. Their response, "It's not the same thing". It's frustrating just thinking about it again. That no matter how hard you try some people will never be able to open their minds completely.Dreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849938650149163955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-67989506548672195832009-07-11T22:12:12.815-07:002009-07-11T22:12:12.815-07:00After far too many decades, there is still resista...After far too many decades, there is still resistance to and resentment of women in the military (though much less than in the past), and even with the repeal of DADT and the pertinent UCMJ articles, there will continue to be resistance to and resentment of homosexuals in the military. <br /><br /><i>However</i>, whether it's women or blacks or homosexuals in question, the wrong thing for the military to do is pander to ignorance and prejudice. I served for 20 years, and yes, there were occasional problems, but by the time I retired, what had changed significantly was the institutional support of the anti-female attitudes. (Back when I was in basic, the day that the men got weapons training, we got "make-up and hygiene".) <br /><br />DADT encourages and endorses anti-gay attitudes. Allowing gays to serve without secrecy (or lying) won't make their service trouble-free, but it will at least start the long process toward a military that recognizes and respects competence, regardless of inconsequential attributes. <br /><br />Most everyone I've ever served with had the pragmatic attitude that Rick's comment above reflects. The few who didn't...well, mostly they were jerks who were eager to hate anyone different, if they could get away with it. Right now, hating gays is something the military lets them get away with.Schazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10004665049878807165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-85683520975961371252009-07-11T21:32:16.421-07:002009-07-11T21:32:16.421-07:00And then there's the statistic that the anti-g...And then there's the statistic that the anti-gay crowd never offer up: the demographic who perpetrate the most sexual violence are straight men. So if we really want to end all these shower attacks . . .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-44822502801068847402009-07-11T20:19:47.972-07:002009-07-11T20:19:47.972-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Colin Liddellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10394469369768834744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-37056318267445208152009-07-11T20:19:13.782-07:002009-07-11T20:19:13.782-07:00Barry,
Caught the Facebook string as well. I wil...Barry,<br /><br />Caught the Facebook string as well. I will simply say, "Oy."<br /><br />Cheers,<br />Paul<br /><a href="http://sensen-no-sen.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Sensen No Sen</a>PBIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05643553811799195520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-74665479128085433932009-07-11T20:17:03.852-07:002009-07-11T20:17:03.852-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Colin Liddellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10394469369768834744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-13756277788819707582009-07-11T20:15:20.230-07:002009-07-11T20:15:20.230-07:00C.B.,
The "inclusivist propaganda of the Uni...C.B.,<br /><br />The "inclusivist propaganda of the United States"? By what measure are the successes of the Massachusetts 54th and the Airmen "propaganda"? By the measure that they refute your argument pretty clearly? Of do you have actual evidence that the historical record has been forged? If so, please provide it; I would be very interested to see it.<br /><br />I understand that you are arguing gay regiments would be a good thing, but that is not the point to which I was responding. (Nice attempted duck and cover though.)<br /><br />Rather, I was speaking to your aside; you know, the one where you have "doubts about all-African-American outfits"? The one that ignores black achievement and tries to paint an entire group of people with a broad brush in order to make the world conform to your preconceptions? <br /><br />Right - THAT one.<br /><br />Paul<br /><a href="http://sensen-no-sen.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Sensen No Sen</a>PBIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05643553811799195520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-31570248064503541302009-07-11T20:13:25.564-07:002009-07-11T20:13:25.564-07:00My wife served honorably, but she couldn't be ...My wife served honorably, but she couldn't be promoted beyond a certain rank for fear of court martial, regardless of her skill or usefulness or ability. <br /><br />I know that's wrong.<br /><br />And she served because she loves this country and she was proud to serve, even knowing that if she was ever outed, she'd spend time in Leavenworth (she joined before DADT). <br /><br />Your arguments, as always, Barry, are inspirational!<br /><br />And, on a completely different note,we'd love to have you back to Seattle Mystery Bookshop next May or June. I can't wait for INSIDE OUT -- loved FAULT LINE!Franhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15073658261122703742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-28578245634791534242009-07-11T20:10:03.408-07:002009-07-11T20:10:03.408-07:00My God, Rick, drawing on your own actual, relevant...My God, Rick, drawing on your own actual, relevant experience, rather than indulging in untested fantasy suppositions? If you keep this up, you might inspire an Internet trend (and here's hoping...). <br /><br />Paul, thanks for the usual sane and insightful commentary. C.B. Liddell is the same Colin Buchan Liddell I had to ban from my FaceBook page for trollish behavior. It seems he's determined to continue it here. Sad to be unable to stop pestering someone who's politely urged you to go elsewhere, but what can you do. Trolls are just part of the Internet.Barry Eislerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17785333622697500192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1042494786157663982009-07-11T19:56:12.189-07:002009-07-11T19:56:12.189-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Colin Liddellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10394469369768834744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-87628815104514373322009-07-11T19:44:51.267-07:002009-07-11T19:44:51.267-07:00C.B. Liddell said...
I think gay regiments would a...C.B. Liddell said...<br /><i>I think gay regiments would actually be quite formidable and be more than the sum of their parts, although I have my doubts about all-African-American outfits.</i><br /><br />How about the Massachusetts 54th during the Civil War (or as I'm guessing you might refer to it, "The War of Northern Agression")? The Tuskegee Airmen in World War II? While dealing with segregation and discrimination in the United States, when they were actually allowed to fight, black units have pretty universally excelled. <br /><br />And really? You're arguing for "separate but equal"? Did you just step out of a time machine from the 1950's? This is some seriously bigoted ignorance you've managed to encapsulate in your comment.<br /><br />Paul<br /><a href="http://sensen-no-sen.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Sensen No Sen</a>PBIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05643553811799195520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-39488962937026586122009-07-11T18:51:34.804-07:002009-07-11T18:51:34.804-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Colin Liddellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10394469369768834744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-63097957743056457802009-07-11T18:33:19.696-07:002009-07-11T18:33:19.696-07:00Having served in the military let me just say this...Having served in the military let me just say this. When the fecal matter hits the fan I don't care who the person in the foxhole with me sleeps with in his off time. Only that he has my back and can do his job.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16834580130935020575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-65274129562412308262009-07-11T17:55:51.620-07:002009-07-11T17:55:51.620-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Colin Liddellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10394469369768834744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-29503615340853971642009-07-11T17:40:16.953-07:002009-07-11T17:40:16.953-07:00What does someone's sexual preference matter w...What does someone's sexual preference matter when serving their country? The same goes for someone's nationality and gender.KT Granthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15958121742156171756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-77335040145442576252009-07-11T17:31:53.373-07:002009-07-11T17:31:53.373-07:00The thing I love best about your blog, whther here...The thing I love best about your blog, whther here or on myspace, is how meticulously you hoist the nonthinkers by their own petards. <br /><br />Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-70194877307345364822009-07-11T17:29:30.675-07:002009-07-11T17:29:30.675-07:00Interesting substitution arguments - they do make ...Interesting substitution arguments - they do make things stand out in stark contrast. I'll have to remember that technique. <br /><br />I can understand resistance, and I have a strong belief that people are entitled to their opinion, no matter how stupid that opinion might be. What makes no sense to me in this debate is that many people who are strongly resistant to repealing DADT don't see their own resistance. This level of self-delusion is more than a little disturbing.Elise Loganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17985716699342250049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-22844371840149786802009-07-11T17:26:00.708-07:002009-07-11T17:26:00.708-07:00If they're ready to "support and defend t...If they're ready to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic," and as Rep Murphy says, are able to fire an M-4 and kick down doors, I don't care if they have two heads, green skin and are sexually oriented toward thorny roses. <br />If we're going to make sexual orientation the issue, let's talk about straight sex addicts who serve in the military. How can they backup their buddies when they're distracted all the time thinking about the hot men or women they want to bed the next time they have a chance? How about straight sado-masochists? You want to serve with one of them? <br />Yeah those are looney arguments. Just like those offered by folks who favor DADT.Doug M.Cummingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12273845184875910504noreply@blogger.com