tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post1365372072296037383..comments2023-12-16T16:50:25.810-08:00Comments on The Heart of the Matter: How to ArgueBarry Eislerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17785333622697500192noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-84246839476788071132014-09-13T21:27:23.189-07:002014-09-13T21:27:23.189-07:00Remember, it's not binaries as such that are t...Remember, it's not binaries as such that are the problem; it's false binaries. If you can think of other explanations besides sloppy thinking or deliberate attempts to mislead, I'm open to suggestions!Barry Eislerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17785333622697500192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-62515014131068490682014-09-13T17:20:25.106-07:002014-09-13T17:20:25.106-07:00"False binaries are the result either of slop..."False binaries are the result either of sloppy thinking or of deliberate attempts to mislead, neither of which is well calculated to persuade".<br /><br />I found it funny that there were only two possible causes of false binaries. I can't think of a third one, but you must have been sure, to claim it in this way. :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12571554477349883906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-46459358989101080512011-01-25T11:18:31.404-08:002011-01-25T11:18:31.404-08:00Barry,
I love this. I have been hating the all th...Barry,<br />I love this. I have been hating the all the social media sites lately because of having to deal with people who attack rather than argue. I will share this liberally.<br /><br />Oh, and to get to number ten and see my dad, I nearly peed myself. LOL.<br /><br />Best,<br />KellyKelly Carlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09130450446365694473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-43998506905350410552011-01-24T10:03:09.990-08:002011-01-24T10:03:09.990-08:00"Why is it that it's always the Liz Chene..."Why is it that it's always the Liz Cheneys and Marc Thiessens of the world—that is, the people with no real-world experience—who want to torture terror suspects and think there's no other way to gain actionable intelligence from them? Read Matthew Alexander, a guy who's been there and done that and knows a lot better what works—and what's good for America—than the torture chickenhawks, demogogues, and drama queens will ever understand."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-78767202801770963102011-01-24T08:46:55.429-08:002011-01-24T08:46:55.429-08:00So calling people who disagree with your position ...So calling people who disagree with your position on torture "chickenhawks" is ok?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-73509264691457848402011-01-08T04:16:35.777-08:002011-01-08T04:16:35.777-08:00This is a succinct, plausible and useful guideline...This is a succinct, plausible and useful guideline to being an effective persuader (or arguer if you prefer)that I have ever read Barry, your powers of language usage are phenomenal - articulate and perceptive.. I love your books, but I didn't realize that behind the surface of your mind as a thriller writer lies the mind of a philosopher and teacher. Do you think your martial arts training has anything to do with that? I ask because my son has a black belt in judo and he teaches judo as well. He has recently become very much more philosophical about life in general and his inner self i particular. Your comment will be more than welcome.<br />Fredess (Cape Town, South Africa)Fred S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14581040508799487935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-4176682050383206082010-11-20T22:14:38.919-08:002010-11-20T22:14:38.919-08:00I loved that conversation book, and I've been ...I loved that conversation book, and I've been hoping for a post like this for awhile. One of the root problems is that our society tends to look down on people who change their mind as wishy-washy or spineless or hypocritical. Sure, there are people who change their mind because of those qualities. A person, however, who can listen to all sides of an issue with an open mind and honestly consider all arguments without pre-judgment is a person to respect. If our culture honors and respects those people who can and do change their mind, then perhaps we'll have more civilized debate and effective discourse.Spy Scribblerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299551957327543491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-1446790351311130162010-11-17T13:44:53.894-08:002010-11-17T13:44:53.894-08:00BHA HUMBUG!!BHA HUMBUG!!Jim_Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13413901372192258043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-5866997147067550962010-11-17T06:38:04.361-08:002010-11-17T06:38:04.361-08:00Excellent post. Do you believe that part of the re...Excellent post. Do you believe that part of the reason people tend to "masturbate" more than "argue" is because the professional arguers on television are bad examples? Instead of debating, politicians, talk radio hosts and op/ed commentators score points (and ratings) by angering or exciting people?James Viserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04689551338080985311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-87704615559197047312010-11-16T07:32:40.053-08:002010-11-16T07:32:40.053-08:00Wow. This echoes so many conversations I've ha...Wow. This echoes so many conversations I've had with people over the years. Thanks for bringing all these ideas into one place. I expect I'll link to this in future blog posts.SereneBabehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07125962568631763164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-43245693542078447762010-11-15T19:31:31.721-08:002010-11-15T19:31:31.721-08:00Joshua, when I think someone is arguing in bad fai...Joshua, when I think someone is arguing in bad faith, it's usually about the time I think I've made all the points worth making, so at that time I'll just politely disengage.<br /><br />As I mentioned in the post, I do think there's a place for ridicule etc, depending on intent and audience. When someone like Colbert ridicules a politician, he's trying to expose the politician and get the public to perceive the politician differently. He's not trying to persuade the politician himself. The dynamics of a mass audience and celebrity ridicule are different, I think, than the dynamics of the comment section of a blog.<br /><br />Overall, I'd say that ridicule can be a powerful weapon, but should be used only with a lot of self awareness. Ridiculing someone offers self-pleasure possibilities that are seductive in their own right, so you really have to be clear in your mind why you're using it. From my Internet experience, I'd say ridicule and sarcasm get deployed far, far more often than high-minded motives will ever explain.Barry Eislerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17785333622697500192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-76128717876916287262010-11-15T18:02:12.787-08:002010-11-15T18:02:12.787-08:00Barry,
It's pretty hard to change my mind abo...Barry,<br /><br />It's pretty hard to change my mind about something (though it HAS happened!), so I just always assume I'm not going to change the other person, but that we are just presenting our views like a debate team for the audience. LOL. I guess I just find it too frustrating to try to persuade someone who was passionate enough about the other side to come out and publicly argue about it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-10493737302040822172010-11-15T12:41:12.224-08:002010-11-15T12:41:12.224-08:00Well written article. Article and persuasive.
It...Well written article. Article and persuasive. <br /><br />It's been my experience that most people, when engaging in debate, are not at all interested in exploring a subject for better understanding. <br /><br />The conversation is entirely based on an emotional attachment to the subject that, if proven wrong, would devalue their lives in some way.<br /><br />(I've been guilty of this as well.)<br /><br />It's helpful to see the guidelines for discussion and argument so cleanly laid out.Kimberly Kinradehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17788461170608720060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-71634344893986557682010-11-15T07:51:19.982-08:002010-11-15T07:51:19.982-08:00Barry, this is a great article. My Dad and I have ...Barry, this is a great article. My Dad and I have been having a wonderful email argument about the economy for months now, and we've (largely, if not entirely) stuck to these guidelines. We've been able to keep it constructive, and we've both learned a lot. I've even changed his opinion about at least one topic, and he's changed mine a little, too. Argument can be a great conversation, and we're enjoying ours. I would add one item to the list:<br /><br />11. If you're arguing with a friend or loved one, don't forget to periodically reaffirm that you love them and that you're enjoying the conversation. Sounds a little stupid, but it goes a long way to keeping the temperature from getting too hot if everyone knows that the argument is not denigrating the relationship.leggo-my-eggohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14270919886362804335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-20664411842104745542010-11-15T07:36:18.661-08:002010-11-15T07:36:18.661-08:00My question would be, then, how do you recommend d...My question would be, then, how do you recommend dealing with the dishonest and / or unreasonable people putting forth false arguments? Provably false (the whole climate change thing comes to mind, but there are others) and once you prove your point, they simply go ... "I don't believe what you just said, despite the evidence before my own eyes," etc. <br /><br />I know the President is fond of saying that "reasonable people can disagree" and I absolutely agree with that because I've found it to be true again and again. <br /><br />One other truth I've found in my limited experience is that you cannot reason with someone who doesn't or refuses to speak the language. <br /><br />And this my be just my taste or POV, but dealing with unreasonable / uncivil folks on certain issues (such as race, religion, etc) I often find myself, once reason has proven to be ignored or useless, resorting to ridicule ... which certainly has its place in our national discourse, does it not (if we look at Colbert, Stewart, etc).<br /><br />Isn't that an issue of taste? <br /><br />I mean, you know as well as I do that there are many out there who won't be reasoned with on certain issues ... so what's a person to do?Joshua Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08239067667651048280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-22171696985911969182010-11-14T23:41:36.046-08:002010-11-14T23:41:36.046-08:00Thanks for the excellent pointers. I also found th...Thanks for the excellent pointers. I also found this bit of insight very useful:<br /><br />"The metaphor ARGUMENTS ARE LIKE WAR tells us we should be attacking each other's positions, particularly the weak points, and defending our own weaknesses. If we used the metaphor ARGUMENTS ARE LIKE MUSIC PRACTICE, we would be using arguments as an opportunity to find out how we are each contributing to disharmonies." -- Gary Klein, <i>Sources of Power</i>, how metaphors govern the way we think about issues from Lakoff and Johnson's <i>Metaphors We Live By</i> (1980).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-19614934221091792172010-11-14T23:29:32.355-08:002010-11-14T23:29:32.355-08:00Zoe, I agree that when arguing in a public forum, ...Zoe, I agree that when arguing in a public forum, you should also be trying to persuade the people who are listening. But I find that what's most persuasive to the one will be most persuasive to the many -- and that the reverse is true, too.Barry Eislerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17785333622697500192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22165230.post-52750750305616658252010-11-14T22:58:36.317-08:002010-11-14T22:58:36.317-08:00With regards to point 1, I'm not really trying...With regards to point 1, I'm not really trying to persuade the person I'm arguing with when I argue on the Internet. Sometimes it happens, and it's nice, but that's not my purpose. Just like the presidential debates aren't intended for the debaters to change each other's minds. <br /><br />Public debates and arguments, IMO, are really for those watching, not those involved in the argument. If it was about those involved in the argument, they could just take it to private email and not do it in public.<br /><br />For the most part, those in the argument already have their minds made up. If one is reasonably intelligent, it took them time and consideration to come to their position, and very often they are already aware of the other side of the issue, which is why they disagree with it.<br /><br />I'm unlikely to change my view. They are unlikely to change theirs. But someone still looking at two sides of an issue who hasn't made his mind up yet and is reading... that's who I really want to reach.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com